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OK, I'll tell you just for the record, let's go ahead and. 00:00:02
I'm John Shellenberger. We're here to talk, have workshop on the developer stormwater fees. For the record, let's everybody go 00:00:06
around and identify themselves. Jason Copperway with Paul Primavera and associates. Brad Benson with Asbury County commissioner, 00:00:12
director of operations and planning, citizen. 00:00:18
Nick Creevy, director, building and development Chris Moore, Floyd County stormwater director Dale Man, Georgetown resident. 00:00:25
OK. Thanks everybody. I'm going to kind of leave it open for discussion here, but. 00:00:32
We've had some discussion at our stormwater meetings about the. 00:00:38
About storm water fees and in front of you we have two different topic or two, two different emails, one from PJ. 00:00:43
And then one from Dale Dale Mann and so. 00:00:52
I'll let them open this discussion, but I think we have a hard stop at three. Yes, one. I have one too. 00:00:58
Domestic. So anyway we got our stopper through welcome and done before that well. 00:01:06
Do you mind if I start? No, that's fine. 00:01:12
My suggestions at the meetings and by the e-mail. 00:01:14
In front of us was about. 00:01:19
When I'm not when but how to apply? 00:01:21
The stormwater feeds to the builders, the developers, et cetera, that were the. 00:01:25
Topic of discussion. 00:01:30
And I put down a few suggestions here. 00:01:32
About when it would be initiated, but I have some questions and perhaps Don can answer either. 00:01:35
What are the filing procedures? 00:01:44
From a builder or developer as far as when they're going to change the property and things like there is plots or lots, 00:01:48
subdivisions. 00:01:53
I've seen in various. 00:01:57
Literature that there's a grading plan and building permits. What is the person that they have to file when they're going to build 00:02:00
say a house or a subdivision? Well, I guess the first question I would ask back is, is this solely for subdivisions or is this for 00:02:08
any development in Floyd County? So if it's is this for is, is your request for making these changes solely for subdivisions? So 00:02:16
it's so if I have a vacant piece of land and want to build. 00:02:24
Your Is it just for structures or is it just for accessory buildings? 00:02:33
OK, any, any building that's going to have a storm under for instance in agricultural they do the impervious surface driveways, 00:02:39
buildings, outbuildings and residential it's the $39.00 fee and our commercial I understand is also a square footage but. 00:02:48
Whatever the zoning, commercial, residential. 00:02:58
When did they start? 00:03:04
Altering the surface of the land. 00:03:06
Like ratings, it depends on what It depends on the activity. 00:03:09
It depends on the activity. If it's a subdivision, it's at a certain point in time and Chris can probably tell you when that is. 00:03:14
If it's just a single family house on a vacant lot and in a non subdivision that would come at building permit. 00:03:21
But then you also have accessory structure. So what's the? 00:03:29
Are we? What are we looking to try to capture here? 00:03:34
But the main thing that got my attention and some others is. 00:03:38
When they're building subdivisions. 00:03:42
Like the single family lot? 00:03:45
Isn't as much of a problem because they're stripping, you know, and they're grading and doing from one house. 00:03:47
In building process, but when you're doing a subdivision, they might be stripping anywhere from 2:00 to 10:00 properties at a time 00:03:53
and they're building 1. 00:03:58
Structure of time. 00:04:03
But all the runoff is already increased, so it might for my. 00:04:05
Chris, maybe you can help. Can you walk through the process that might be that might be helpful. 00:04:13
I mean, the way I understand the process is if you're interested in developing your property for a subdivision, whether that's a 00:04:18
minor or exempt or major subdivision, you'd have to go in front of Planning Commission and get an approval. Once you got the 00:04:26
Planning Commission approval, then there's a whole checklist of different things that you would have to do as a developer to get 00:04:34
that going. One of those is submitting to Floyd County storm water your erosion control and drainage plans. 00:04:42
Once those are permitted and accepted at Floyd County storm water, then we then you would put up a bond for for that development 00:04:50
and then you would be able to start developing that land, which means you would could start clearing and taking off the. 00:05:00
Grass and vegetation and stuff. I think Nick Nurse, that's after they come back for secondary approval. 00:05:11
Correct for subdivisions. 00:05:18
No construction activities can occur until we have a development plan or a development agreement in place which occurs after 00:05:22
secondary. 00:05:26
So how what could be before a plat is? 00:05:32
But can they build before the plants recorded? 00:05:38
They can start, they can do their infrastructure, they can start putting their infrastructure. 00:05:41
But there's no lines at the time. No, no. But there's no watch. There's no subdivided watch until final plan, right? I understand 00:05:50
that. 00:05:56
You might be talking about Dale's discussion about acreage versus individual lots. How long? How long is it normally between the 00:06:02
2nd and final approval and actual work on the property? 00:06:08
Is it weeks, days, months? It can be up to 10 years. 00:06:16
Yeah, very. It varies by the development. We do have some schedules of when I. 00:06:20
You have you have to go from secondary approval to having your plat recorded. 00:06:29
One supply is reported. I mean they can take as long. 00:06:36
They'd like to complete their development and just to let you know, OK, so in our subdivision control ordinance, it says what, two 00:06:39
years between plat approvals and whatnot and then one year for secondary and I think the statute changed. 00:06:47
After that, was placed in. 00:06:56
And so now in the state statute, it says when you get a permit you have, you can hold that permit, which includes subdivision 00:06:59
approvals, for a period of 10 years. 00:07:05
And that permits good, I can understand that up turns downturns in the market so. 00:07:12
When? 00:07:18
Does the county? 00:07:20
Or how if the county get noticed that a builder is actually altering the property? 00:07:21
Is there any notice given when they actually bring in a bulldozer and start raiding? 00:07:30
This acreage to build one or a dozen homes there's a there's typically there's a pre construction conference with Floyd County 00:07:36
stormwater to make sure that their pre construction erosion control measures are in place and then only at that point could they 00:07:42
begin actual construction, actual grading. OK. So basically when they had that conference. 00:07:49
They're anticipating commencing the work, right. Typically they're not going to do that two years, three years before the the 00:07:56
building, right, not typically. OK. So that sounds like a good trigger point If the pre construction conference with stormwater 00:08:02
that sounds like a good time to put them on the fee schedule. 00:08:08
Because all the other hoops have been jumped through, the hurdles jumped over and they're getting ready to dig right. 00:08:15
Not everyone does a pre construction conference. 00:08:21
Not everyone does not. 00:08:25
Developers, they sometimes go ahead and start constructing without having that conference. There's nothing in there that requires 00:08:27
them to have a pre construction conference. They we just kind of do one. 00:08:33
You know, we all try to work together and try to make sure we're. 00:08:39
Moving it forward and everything else, but there's nothing that says that there is a required reconstruction. Have you had any 00:08:44
subdivisions put in recently that they have not had? 00:08:49
And so. 00:08:54
Those might be problematic, but would there be any problem? 00:08:57
Where subdivisions that do have a pre construction conference, would there be any problem to start the storm? Would it be clock 00:09:00
money? Then you don't have a lot. You don't have a legal Why? 00:09:06
That's when you get into what Dale was saying. 00:09:12
I'm a fan that they're going to clear. 00:09:15
If you go by the acreage, you can start using the same formula as you use right now for agriculture. 00:09:17
With the impervious surface area of the driveways, the infrastructure, OK. 00:09:24
So you. 00:09:30
But if it's. 00:09:33
And tell me if I'm wrong here, Jason, once you go in and put in your infrastructure, yes, and you, you have X number of days and 00:09:35
if you're not Earth moving, then that has to be covered. 00:09:40
AT-77 business, that's what I said 7. 00:09:47
Business. So seven business days or 14 business days. If there's not any earth moving, then they have to see it and straw and put 00:09:57
it back into vegetation. 00:10:02
So it reduces the runoff. 00:10:07
Yes, God's preserving. Sure. 00:10:10
So he just brought the point. So right now. 00:10:12
Are any of the builders? Developers charge for the infrastructure for the roadways, even if they haven't built houses yet. No, 00:10:15
they're paying for it. What do you mean they're paying for the infrastructure? The developer is constructing the improvements, the 00:10:20
storm water improvements. 00:10:24
No, but those are public infrastructure once they're turned over. Yeah, but you're talking that's apples and oranges. I'm talking 00:10:31
about infrastructure is built prior if it's installed in place. 00:10:38
What otherwise would be an increase in flow, and the current manual is actually a reduction in flow. 00:11:21
And we're still, we're still paying for storm water from the previous year on our taxes. I granted it's from the previous year. So 00:11:27
let's say this year 24, if it was raw ground last year, we'd be paying. 00:11:32
And 23 pay 24 taxes. We would have each installment would include a storm water fee. But it's we're changing it. That's when we're 00:11:38
still responsible for because we're nothing's leaving sight. How do you pay a stormwater pay on property that's not been built 00:11:45
yet? I'll give you an example. Glenwood Farms out there at that subdivision that was a training Center for horses and stuff and 00:11:52
they had barns and stables and hard surface. That was that storm water fee was still being charged. The owners, developers of 00:11:59
Glenwood Farms. 00:12:05
Until it started turning into houses and everything else. OK but how many out meadows in Westfield Springs? 00:12:13
Had no such pre-existing. 00:12:20
Strongman of these because that was vacant property now, but, but if there was a house on it, then it would have been, had a or it 00:12:22
would have been a resident, it would have a $39.00 charge. Or if it was a farm like a, a farmer had had it and he had some barns 00:12:27
on it and it would have been charged. That's impervious surface from those barns and houses, right? But in those two lots, none of 00:12:32
that. 00:12:38
Existed because it was vacant ground right so so roads are installed there a retention basins and a mitigation measures are put in 00:12:43
right yes, correct. And in case they haven't got met or they found that that wasn't sufficient, but in in an ideal situation, it's 00:12:51
supposed to catch all the runoff caused by the the new road and all that right only up to the 100 year storm event. So yeah, I I 00:12:58
think I mean back to your question on Henrik metals. 00:13:06
What was the what was the storm event that happened in? I'm assuming both May and what July? 00:13:14
What was that 100 year storm? Was that beyond 100 years? So then so when you make a statement that wasn't sufficient enough. 00:13:20
Are you sure it wasn't sufficient enough for the for 100 year storm or was it actually sufficient enough for 100 year storm and we 00:13:29
had beyond 100 years? I don't know. But that's what Al brought up and that that was here. He said they really need to change that 00:13:35
because there was 100 year, 500 year storm measurements are happening every two or three or five years now, not every hundred 00:13:41
years, but that's what I'm saying. I mean, I, I just, I mean. 00:13:47
It's, it's not, I'm just, I'm just making a factual statement. 00:13:55
When you made an opinion that said that developed the design was not adequate, you just said it. 00:14:00
Didn't work. You said it was inadequate. 00:14:10
So I mean, I think the question should be, why are we here? 00:14:14
I keep on going back to why are we here? 00:14:19
And if you could explain to me, you and Dale, because you're the ones that are, have kind of been the spearhead of this, why are 00:14:22
we here to change this? Read the ordinance. 00:14:26
What is it, Dale? What exactly? 00:14:35
Properties under such the stormwater fee for properties under construction will be billed to the owner on record of January 1st of 00:14:38
the building year. The builder or developer is responsible for stormfrother changes. OK, so is that what type of construction? 00:14:44
What is the I mean what's the definition of the start of construction? What's what's the definition of construction? Moving dirt 00:14:50
construction is defined. Construction activity is defined as starting with grading and clearing. Where does it say that in the 00:14:57
ordinance? 00:15:03
You're in the ordinance of the. There's two. Are you looking for the same one fees, the other is the ordinance itself. 00:15:11
So if we're referring to the one that defined property properties under construction, the term construction is never defined. What 00:15:18
do you where did you read that? Is that the establishment fees ordinance authorizing, authorizing, establishing a system, storm 00:15:25
water management, user user fees go to the main ordinance. That's the definitions are of construction activities. 00:15:31
The stormwater ordinance. 00:15:39
I had in the emails that I shared with the board and. 00:15:46
Chris, some months ago I had every section, even the page number written down on that. So under under the storm water ordinance 00:15:50
from 2019. 00:15:54
1.4 is the definition section which does not define construction. 00:15:59
If I can see that, yeah, no problem. 00:16:05
That. 00:16:09
And by the way the the reason? 00:16:23
That I was pushing for it is. 00:16:26
Properties under construction, whether it's just grading or actually building the houses. Again, subdivisions. 00:16:29
Got my attention because that's what I see the most springing up around me. 00:16:36
I noticed from driving there that it does increase funnel and even if there's retention vixens. 00:16:40
The it's. 00:16:47
It is increasing the runoff and from the retention basins it can overflow into just the same as coming off the deals ponds on this 00:16:51
farm. Sometimes some of this stuff comes over and I'm not sure why. 00:16:58
The the ordinance says. 00:17:05
The ordinance recognizes that altering the surface from the grass and all that. Well, let's let's find construction, I think. I 00:17:08
think let's let's go from there because the, the issue, my understanding is that the concern here is the ordinance is not being 00:17:16
interpreted correctly and it needs to be interpreted as term as when construction starts, correct, Mr. Mann, pretty much. So. OK, 00:17:23
so let's start with what the definition of construction is in the, in the definition section of the ordinance. 00:17:30
While I'm doing that, why don't you let down the purpose of time Jerk discuss his issue? 00:17:38
Give me one second. I'm going to cut you off here. Just for the record, this ordinance which authorizes the user fees does not 00:17:45
include any provision that references the ordinance. The references the definition section in it. So the definitions that are in 00:17:50
this speak to. 00:17:55
Now have I read. 00:18:39
Word for word looking for that no, but I'm looking at it now. I do not see it. It would be in the last section or in the 00:18:40
definition in the definition section. 00:18:45
It does not include that. 00:18:51
OK. So I guess in terms of moving forward with what you all want to do, you want to have that may be something we need to look at 00:18:53
in terms of how how these are being referenced in terms of construction? 00:18:58
I banned the construction activity. There's another definition section further back in the ordinance. I'm sorry, what's your first 00:19:03
name? Brett. 00:19:07
I'm on page. 00:19:13
Whatever section 2.4 definitions. 00:19:15
I did have to them with this shortage clean we're at. Construction activity is defined as land disturbance activities subject to 00:19:19
the state and PDS general construction permits or local permits. Such activities include, but are not limited to, clearing and 00:19:26
grubbing, rating, excavation and demolition. 00:19:34
And then it goes on to describe, define Floyd County. 00:19:43
Yeah. So that's the definitions in this ordinance that you handed me. 00:19:46
Again, section 2.4. 00:19:56
And can I see the other? 00:19:59
The point you just read about. 00:20:03
Your position if he's. 00:20:05
Yeah, that one is. 00:20:07
This is all one. 00:20:10
Yep. 00:20:15
Chris, whenever the developer. 00:20:18
Plan is there, there, there there's a fee that they pay, Is that correct? Absolutely. And what's that fee called and what's it 00:20:21
cost and what's what's the purpose of it? 00:20:26
The the intent of the fee is for. 00:20:31
The fee is for us for the permit and any subsequential inspections from approval of the permit and everything else. So it's for 00:20:36
the drainage and EPS erosion control permit. So they have to give that fee to us first, so then we review. 00:20:47
What they submitted and then we would give them a permit and then that would also include us going out and doing the inspections 00:20:59
and everything else. So that fee should cover all the way up to them starting to construct houses, OK. 00:21:05
And how much is that? Do you remember it's, it's varies based on the type of development. If it's a subdivision that it's based on 00:21:13
lots which you don't know that until it comes through on final plat. 00:21:19
Based on the number of lots, the more feet and then if it's not a subdivision, if it's a commercial or industrial or something, 00:21:27
it's based on the acreage, right? 00:21:32
And it's also tiered as well. 00:21:37
So there is fees being paid. 00:21:40
By the developers. 00:21:43
For for those activities, stormwater fate. Yes, it is a storm water fee. 00:21:47
More than $39.00 he pays. He pays for, you know, up to four lots. He pays $600. 00:21:54
But that's not what wonderful from 1:00 to 4:00 lots he would pay $600.00. So I mean, that's more, it supports the storm water 00:22:03
effort. 00:22:07
But it's not a stormwater feat as defined. It's not per E, are you? There could be more than one fee, right? That's why we want 00:22:13
the stormwater fee added on to it. 00:22:17
Well, no, there can be more than one. This department of storm water collects more than one fee. 00:22:23
Right, OK. I mean you're, so they collect a fee when a development takes place that's that's a that's a set of fees and a schedule 00:22:29
that that Chris and Jason just explained. And then there's the annual fee. 00:22:36
For development. 00:22:48
You read what I put out. 00:22:50
And I'd like, I'd like to explain, explain it to me. When they come and strip all, all the soil off that which they do, and 00:22:53
they're doing it right now at Knob Hill. There's a mountain down there. They're moved. They're all down to the dirt when they do 00:22:58
that. There's nothing to stop the runoff. 00:23:03
There runs off. They're installing those measures as you as we speak. That is correct. What about the roads they build? They never 00:23:09
pay a dime on the road. Those roads are not ours till they're turned over to the county. They pay nothing. A farmer we got to pay 00:23:15
for a piece of concrete out there. They pay nothing on a road that they have paid. Show me where they paid their fees. Somewhere 00:23:22
they paid $2600 for that whole. How many yards was that? 00:23:28
What's 26, 2006 $100 tell me they don't pay no storm water fee like they have? No they don't. 00:23:35
I think what what PJ was asking you at one point in time was explain what you'd like to see happen. 00:23:46
And, and can you explain, I mean what could you explain to the group because some of them just got it today I would like to see 00:23:53
happen is what I put out when they strip all that dirt. 00:23:58
They come and measure them if it's a 10 acre lot, which I give example if it's a 10 acre lot. 00:24:03
And that 10 acres is stripped of red clay is which that what they do? 00:24:09
And then they start building, they start doing a lot and is as they built their house, they could take that, they could take that 00:24:14
10 acres and get it back. 00:24:17
From the home builders, said us waiting another year for the home builder to pay his homework fee. I'm not the one hollering for 00:24:21
more storm water fees and trying to charge everybody else more when the developer is not paying his fair share. 00:24:26
Explain, explain, explain your explain your proposal. 00:24:33
Proposal is to do just what I wrote down. Well, that's not explaining it. Explain it. Please Bill, please explain it. Explain it. 00:24:36
Acre land is 43,000. 00:24:42
That acre land is in almost impervious. 00:24:47
I give them a little bit like 2/10. We're not being in purpose. Can I? Can I? You want me to hold my questions at the end? No, go 00:24:55
get it. OK, so where did you get the 1314 set? 00:24:59
That was a when you divide, when you drive the absorption rate. Look at the absorption rate on my bottom notes. Where I got that 00:25:05
at? Where did you get that at? I got it offline just like everybody else. I don't know, it's hard to find. 00:25:11
It's a national. It's not. I mean, Jason didn't put any of this down. This is just exactly. 00:25:18
Department of Health to tell you absorption rate of all salt types. I'm asking you because you're the one. That's where I got it 00:25:25
at. You got it from what sorts Got it off from the state. I didn't write the source down. I didn't think I had to, but I'll get it 00:25:31
to you when I get home. 00:25:36
I it's a fair assimilation. Any several engineers should be able to tell you that. I think it'd be very important to understand 00:25:42
that because at some point in time you're asking this board to change the ordinance so that it would follow this, this plan. And 00:25:49
how is it? And there's going to have to be a need for this to be defensible. 00:25:56
I can get you the numbers, but your health, your health department. 00:26:04
This is not about mine or yours or whatever. You're coming to a board, you're making a you're asking them to make a change in an 00:26:09
ordinance county wide. And why don't you bring, why not bring the the supporting documentation to support it instead of just using 00:26:17
generalities and the generalities of it's your health department? No, I'd like to know, is it from the soils survey from 1975? Is 00:26:25
it from the Floyd County health department, from the Indiana State Health Department? 00:26:32
From Purdue University, I guess I could bring dirt. I could bring luminous dirt, red clay and pour water on it and show you. 00:26:41
I wasn't prepared to do that. I just give you an example. 00:26:51
OK, if you want, if you want the numbers and you want me to do a proper professional, I can do that too. But I didn't think I 00:26:56
would have to do that to get my point across. Well, the point across, the developer pays no storm water fees. The point across is 00:27:02
you're asking them to do something, but you don't have any documentation. You should come here with a professional. 00:27:08
Just a citizen. I'm just a citizen. You're a citizen that has asked this board to come in and just public workshop, correct? We've 00:27:14
asked for how many years when in ordinances that start with construction. We can't even agree on that still. 00:27:20
E-mail him. 00:27:27
The story she has that brought that stuff. 00:27:29
I can't get it. You can look it up yourself. You can pull it up from and do yourself. I can e-mail you. I can e-mail you those 00:27:32
numbers. I just cut a little bit out to just to show because I couldn't find the exhaustion rate. 00:27:38
So you can't find it. So you've now just admitted you can't find an absorption. I did. That's what I meant. That's what I said. I 00:27:44
couldn't find all of it. 00:27:46
I found that. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Why do you want to argue with me? I'm just a citizen, Don. I don't want to argue that 00:27:50
because I'm that woman. I'm asking you if you're going to come in front of a board. 00:27:54
And you do come in front of boards and you're making a request to change an ordinance. You're making it. 00:28:00
Start a construction. No, no, no. Where is your thirteen 14th in the ordinance? 00:28:12
I was asked to put in proposing. That's what I did. If I had to be professional, that's different. You would have contacted me 00:28:23
back, asked me, Dale, where is you getting this 1314? I would have brought the whole article. 00:28:28
Figured you would. You would have it here. That's what? A public workshop. I don't get paid. Don Lop. You're paid pressure, not 00:28:34
me. Hold on. Hold on, Hold on. OK. 00:28:39
Look, let's make the assumption. 00:28:44
That it's that, that it's not 1314. Let's let's go through this whole exercise and see where you're coming to, OK? Because that's 00:28:48
the broader picture, OK? 00:28:52
And we can talk about the references and the absorption rate and all that, but let's go down through this and let's find out 00:28:57
exactly what you're proposing, Dale, OK. 00:29:01
So continue. 00:29:06
OK. Then if we go with that's the that's what I found in the absorption rate, that's how I got proposal. When they pull up all the 00:29:08
topsoil off of grass and they go down the red clay which absorption rates very little. Most of times they were just like concrete. 00:29:15
But you charge them nothing. But you'll charge me for a pad on the ground of concrete. You'll come and measure it. 00:29:23
And that's pretty much the same thing I want with a lot that they they're developing when they pull all their tops off of it. And 00:29:30
then when they build a house on starker grass, you can start, they can start taking that off and getting it back. 00:29:37
But we measure them just like you measure farm. But we don't charge you for that concrete pad until there's a concrete pad that's 00:29:44
shown on our aerial photography. All right, So you don't, you could go one year or two years without being charged for that 00:29:50
concrete pad. 00:29:56
Because then it shows up on the assessment and then everything else. And that's when we would capture. You're wanting us to now do 00:30:02
the developers before we would capture you. So, so so the development community would get charged before you would. 00:30:11
And and so that wouldn't be fair to them if we're not charged, if we're charging them ahead of you, but you're so it's not coming, 00:30:20
it's coming from the new development. That's where it's coming from. And you all know that I'd argue it's not coming from the 00:30:26
development because. 00:30:33
The drainage reports say, and how much we have to capture are we capture significantly more than what an existing property would, 00:30:39
Because the way that Duran Jordan is written is it's A to almost make up for. 00:30:46
The years when there wasn't one, when that's that's what caused the issue, when years and years ago when there wasn't anything in 00:30:53
place, when it was a little bit more. 00:30:57
Freestyle you just you didn't have to capture as much where we had to capture a lot on every single property. It's a considerable 00:31:01
reduction. It's it's it's you take a two year storm and reduce it to a two year A10 year storm or reduce it to a two year pre 00:31:07
development storm. You take 100 year post development storm and reduce it to a 10 year pre development storm. It is a now a 00:31:12
significant reduction. 00:31:17
But they're saying neighbors said it increased. 00:31:56
With the after the construction to be to be honest, but. 00:31:58
I want to get back to work. Well, I want to go back to Henry Rock Mills because this seems to be the issue and one of the issues 00:32:02
and one of the issues. If you look in the minutes of the Planning Commission and the staff report, the staff report asked for 00:32:09
125%. The Planning Commission just decided not to do, not to follow staff report of 125% retention. 00:32:15
Where did they go? They went with the standard stormwater, which is 100 year, which is 100% OK. 00:32:22
So. 00:32:27
So they are not on the side of caution, They do not. They decided not to take that as a condition for the property. 00:32:29
So I mean, if you look through this process. 00:32:36
That we had a pre meeting, we had an open meeting. 00:32:40
We had the gentleman sit there and say that he already had flooding. 00:32:45
Which is kind of. 00:32:48
You know when you have a, when you have a? 00:32:50
Vacant land. 00:32:53
There and then the staff put 125% and now it went to 100%. But even at 100% we're still talking about a rain event. 00:32:55
That is beyond 100 year, the 100 year measure it's going to, they're going to have flooding at a certain point in time regardless 00:33:06
of how large you build the detention, right, especially because their standards are outmoded and need to be updated. There's no 00:33:12
doubt about that. But. 00:33:18
I could say grad. 00:33:25
What you just said about the construction and detention basins and capturing the water, you actually share some of the problems 00:33:26
with the agriculture people. He's got three or four ponds. He does his darnest to collect. 00:33:33
Run off, not let it go under the street where it's cattle, the crops, whatever. I know other land holders with that too and so 00:33:40
they don't understand why they're charged for impervious for young. He could have 50 acres. 00:33:47
And pay more for one house in the garage than a regular residential lot would have, even though that 50 acres is collecting 00:33:55
surrounding properties run on, so I can sympathize with that. 00:34:01
When you said the the discussion, I'm glad I'm hearing this. 00:34:08
If you're telling me that the builders and developers are paying. 00:34:13
Storm water mitigation. 00:34:18
While it's being built. 00:34:20
And paying at a higher rate than $39 per. 00:34:22
Projected or probable? 00:34:26
I mean, I'm OK with that. 00:34:29
Being fair, I just didn't, you know? 00:34:32
I did not know that. My impression was that they weren't paying anything other than putting in some mitigation measure and then 00:34:35
that's it if they're actually paying. 00:34:39
Fees above and beyond to have Chris or just themselves and Chris monitor runoff. I mean, that's all I'm asking for is fairness and 00:34:44
reasonableness and the $39 per lot. 00:34:52
The only thing where I would still hold out for that is I don't think that should wait until it's transferred, bought and sold to 00:35:00
some family. I think as soon as they have the house going up. 00:35:06
House, garage, driving, whatever I think that property needs to be on the regular residential storm would affect. 00:35:13
Don't we receive the storm water fee once once the house is assessed at a certain percentage that the yes. So I don't like the 00:35:22
assessment. Generally it's all about when the house complete in that January 1 date of the assessment if it's. 00:35:28
Say caught, but you know, it's just like, start building a house on Yeah. And November versus June, the house in June will be 00:35:35
finished and we'll get a full bill for the following year. 00:35:41
It's just like, it's just like anyone else. It would be like if Dale decided to put another barn on this property or if I decided 00:35:47
to put another shed on my property. Just like you and the development community, if you decide to actually put a house on there. 00:35:53
The the records that we get that were able to do the billing, instead of having our own billing department, we use assessors and 00:35:59
tax bills. 00:36:05
Those are all in the rears, so it does take them some time before they are actually caught up onto the assessment roles and 00:36:11
everything else so. 00:36:15
No one is getting anything ahead of time or or getting an advantage on anyone else. It just depends on when it's in the assessors 00:36:21
role and they're all in the rears. So like I said, if they'll build a pole barn this year or today, that's not going to show up 00:36:29
until January 1 of 2025. Just like if ASB doesn't build a house last month, it's not going to show up till January 1 of 2025. Just 00:36:36
like if I put another **** on my property, it's not going to show up until January 1 of 2025. 00:36:44
That's when we would get that information from the assessor's office and then charge the stormwater fee. So everyone is then equal 00:36:52
on the same page. And that's what part of this whole discussion and workshop is about, trying to be fair, inequitable and all 00:36:59
across the board not not to have one entity not get charged. 00:37:06
By putting their concrete pad in but yet charging another one when they have nothing on their property. Just on the speculation 00:37:14
that they are going to have some lots eventually later that year or possibly in a year and a half. 00:37:20
You said in arrears. 00:37:27
Saying. 00:37:29
What's up five homes and subdivision this summer, but it's not on the roads until January, January 1 to 2025 and that's when we 00:37:33
would catch the fee for 2024 since it's in arrears or is that just forgiven and does not put on the taxes wise? It would be 2024. 00:37:41
Our storm water bill would have already been sent out. So there's no way of putting it on the storm water bill for 2024 because 00:37:48
our bills had already been sent out so. 00:37:56
The next billing cycle that it would be eligible for would be that January 1 of 2025, just like all the other parcels. So there's 00:38:04
no way. 00:38:08
The billing contract Dale or a developer? 00:38:13
For the arrears, you're saying that? 00:38:18
Right. Accounting rights. That's impossible. 00:38:20
The the storm water fee is basically like any other tag. It's basically a tax in the bottom line. It goes on your tax, it goes on 00:38:23
your property tax bill. When, when, when the event happens that triggers it. So the building, the construction of the house, then 00:38:31
it would go on the bill for next year, for this year, just like if you. 00:38:38
Built an outbuilding or built a swimming pool? As soon as it gets assessed then it would be added to your taxes. 00:38:47
And then you pay it the next year. That's what he means by in arrears. It doesn't actually fund until the next year. 00:38:54
Three of them don't sell. 00:39:02
Till a year and a half from now. 00:39:08
Does that mean that? 00:39:11
They got they the cell. The cell date does not matter and it's all about the assessment date and when it would be caught on that 00:39:14
January 1. When that assessment goes up, that's when it would be. 00:39:19
Is the owner at that point and and so whether it sells tomorrow or. 00:39:26
A year and a half from now it's on ASP until they do sell and then changes ownership. Then if if two of those houses changes the 00:39:34
ownership by January 1, it would be caught and then that new owner would get that bill versus ASB. Good. One of the reasons I 00:39:40
wanted to come here is just I had questions and then one of them was. 00:39:46
Does it take a transfer on ownership to get, you know, to kick in there and say I'm glad I'm here because I'm getting a lot of 00:39:52
information so I appreciate it including you guys. But my position is if there's nobody private or individual citizen or a builder 00:39:59
is getting a free ride on stormwater mitigation. 00:40:06
I don't have a big issue with that. 00:40:14
I don't know Jason or Brad if you want to speak. Sometimes these bonds are quite expensive on top of maintaining it throughout. I 00:40:57
mean it would be much easier, cheaper for us to pay $39.00 a lot. 00:41:02
Right. They're, yeah, they're maintaining that infrastructure until the two year test period is done at a minimum if and, and at 00:41:08
that point the county gets to come in and inspect it and they have to make repairs to those facilities to make sure they're 100% 00:41:13
functional and correctly installed at the moment the county takes it over. 00:41:19
So there's not a free ride anywhere? I got a question. 00:41:25
Before before the roads are turned over to the county. 00:41:31
Who pays the stalwart? 00:41:36
That that's part of their permit fee and the bond that they put up. 00:41:38
And they maintain those facilities. What about the storm water? 00:41:44
Looked on my run I feel like like I got to pay like we all got to pay. As soon as a house develops on a lot while the developer is 00:41:48
maintaining the roads, then those houses pay a storm water fee. They pay 39 on their lot. Who pays on the road Rat? Who pays on 00:41:54
the road? Are you? Are you referring solely the road? The road before they're turned over to the county? Who pays storm water fee 00:42:01
on the road? There's not a storm water yearly fee for that, but it is covered by the permit fees. 00:42:08
And the water is being caught by the detention ponds and old measure, just just like throwing off the property. They've already 00:42:16
got those measures in place. So you've got a road and the water is running into the into the. 00:42:23
Water with my ponds too, just like Henriette Rd. Henriott Rd. does not charge the storm water fee for Henry OTT Rd. Henriot Roger 00:42:31
County Road. 00:42:35
Are not in charge. All roads are in charge of that's considered. 00:42:41
That's gonna be the subdivision still turned over to the county and they don't pay any stormwater fees. 00:42:47
Private road caster pay roads are not considered. 00:42:54
So a black top Rd. has to pay no, but no one pays a stormwater fee for their. 00:42:58
Right. And no one, no one pays a storm water fee for Henriette Rd. 00:43:05
County Road, but that that road before that subdivision, so that road inside is not the county. I believe you can find in the 00:43:11
ordinance where it says roadways are not considered. 00:43:16
Public use, but it's not a public, it's privately owned Rd. 00:43:21
That's actually not technically true because as soon as the Plaid is recorded, the right of way is dedicated. The right of way is 00:43:25
dedicated to the candidates, so it's county property, but it doesn't have to be maintained by the county until such time as next. 00:43:30
Are you talking about? 00:43:36
It doesn't matter what Rd. does not charge the storm water fee. 00:43:41
No, I'm not talking about Windster. I'm talking about the new roads for the subdivision inside the subdivision. So when when it 00:43:47
comes to final plan? 00:43:50
And when the commissioners sign it and when Jason and Brad record it, then that right away is dedicated to the county. 00:43:54
Right. 00:44:02
Who pays the stormwater fee on that, on that? 00:44:05
Right. 00:44:09
They are for driveways and roads. They are and there's no storm water fee I think. 00:44:12
Dell, let me you're here, you can tell me if I'm wrong on this. Your contention is? 00:44:17
As agriculture gets gets charged for a driveway. 00:44:23
Or commercial insider development they get. 00:44:28
And you're saying that that should be charged? 00:44:35
The floor gets handed over to the camp. 00:44:39
So, but you're saying that you mentioned, you mentioned you know that you've got ponds on your property that are mitigating storm 00:44:44
water? 00:44:48
I believe there's a process under the ordinance where you can come and apply for a credit. 00:44:52
For those measures that are in place to get a reduction in your stormwater fee, I agree, Jason, but I have to cost $500.00 for an 00:44:56
engineer to write a letter saying I'm catching water. That's pretty cheap. Pretty cheap for a $5 credit that's real cheap. 00:45:03
100 years. 00:45:12
Yeah. And and I gotta renew it every five years. That's the credit. I just want to summarize here. And the question was that you 00:45:15
gotta you got a subdivision, it's been, it's, it's gone through the construction and they've got all the detention bases and all 00:45:22
that. Those are designed to catch the runoff. OK. And now it's what 125% is that right? No, it's. 00:45:30
It's reduced the 100 year to the 10 year pre development rate and the 10 year post development to the two year pre development 00:45:38
rate, OK. So it's a it's a significant reduction in runoff under the current manual, OK. 00:45:43
So let's say you have a subdivision and if the developer is not developing that, OK. 00:45:48
They were not paying a fee on those lots because that because there's no building on there, correct? 00:45:55
That's correct. Correct. OK. But what you were talking about is that that you want to charge him a stormwater fee for that if they 00:46:01
got their land stripped. That's what I've been going after. They're required to see the straw. 00:46:08
OK, there's no tops or red kite. It's not absorbed water. 00:46:17
I don't disagree with that. When they strip all the tops off red clay, you've got runoff. See what they've done. 00:46:21
To the detention areas, as it's supposed to. It still runs to that Creek. 00:46:31
But there's a Rosen, there's a Rosen control measures, there's erosion control measures. And they are while they're stripping the 00:46:36
land of the top soil and leaving it red clay, they are installing their detention basins. While while they're constructing, so 00:46:42
does a farmer. 00:46:47
He's got, you've got, I don't, You've got the land strip. You've got bear, bear. Red clay farmers got a barn. The impervious 00:46:54
service is much different, but you measure that farmer, but you let you at the subdivision all that red clay run off. But we're 00:47:00
not charging that farmer until the barn is actually built. 00:47:06
We're not charging the farmer before he increased his plans. Get put, get submitted to us. We're not charging the farmer before 00:47:13
his plans are submitted. I understand that. So you're not charging a farmer for stripped land either? You're charging them for 00:47:18
increased impervious area, Yes. 00:47:23
They're not. You're not paying anything for a strip of field strip lands the same as impervious. That's what I've tried to prove 00:47:28
with a 1314. You're not paying it with Chris. Name is. If you're going to apply to them, then every individual landowner that's 00:47:36
going to put up a bar or whatever has to do the same thing and start paying early. That's what he is saying. 00:47:43
Just because there's a larger scale doesn't mean they still have to pay more than smaller scale. 00:47:51
By the way, each retention basins. 00:47:58
How much the the potential pollutants do they catch? 00:48:01
Before it gets discharged into the assumption, different detention basins can detain different pollutants at different rates and 00:48:05
everything else. Some sometimes you have grass bottom detention ponds and so all the nutrients and all the sediment can get caught 00:48:12
in that vegetation before it gets released and everything else. And that's kind of the design of detention basins is hey, let it, 00:48:20
it's the old, it's the old thought process. Let, let the sediment kind of settle down and then. 00:48:28
Then the clean water can go out and then every so often you need to. 00:48:36
Dig up, dig up that sediment that reaches them now, the new regulations that they're wanting to pass that they haven't did yet, 00:48:41
and then this will make Jason happy is they find out that the sediment doesn't. 00:48:46
Settle down fast enough. So now they want to put these skimmers on top of these detention basins that would capture the first inch 00:48:52
or first, what they call first flush. And so the skimmers would actually start sucking the water out and put that sediment into 00:49:00
this area and then let the clean water come out and everything else, which will cost developers a whole lot more money. 00:49:07
We're going to wrap up your. 00:49:16
OK. 00:49:19
We're here because you're also concerned. So I am happy with the information I got. And has it addressed your concerns? Yeah, the 00:49:21
the only thing that isn't quote UN quote perfect is. 00:49:27
The number of weeks or months, whatever, that a property under construction might be on the fee schedule but is not. 00:49:34
I'm not prepared to nitpick that that there was something I would like to see if it's more than six months to get it put on the. 00:49:42
The fee for that year, even if it means some sort of accounting change for the arrears, but other than that I'm good. I'm I 00:49:50
appreciate these guys coming to give me the information. So your concern is that if at some point in time that rate needs to be 00:49:57
prorated for that for that year in order to get on the tax roll, is that correct? 00:50:03
What's your? What's your time frame then? 00:50:16
Six months. Are you good with six months? I mean, if at some point in time myself, Chris, someone's going to be at that podium 00:50:18
talking to the board about changes that have come out of this. And so, you know, I'd much rather understand what you're proposing. 00:50:27
If it's less than half, let it go. If it's more than half, OK, Would you look at it? Let's let's round it up to $40. That's $20, 00:50:39
OK. 00:50:43
And then there is administrative effort on this part too, Chris, OK, because you've got the assessor, you've got, it's the company 00:50:48
that we use. So it's like I remember the argument, Al was right. I think once you get past the baking in period, it should just be 00:50:55
automatic. You still have to get it done. Is that right, Chris? 00:51:02
Something was constructed within less than six months. You would have to somehow. 00:51:11
Flag those through the assessor's office and then get that to our third party engineering that does the storm water billing and 00:51:19
let them know. And then that would take them a little extra time to do that. So it's not quite automated. It still would take 00:51:24
people and time and effort to get it. 00:51:30
What would trigger the six months? How would we know when that six months is up? 00:51:38
How would you know? I'm asking just general January 1 did you so right, so is it so you're saying that when we pull a building 00:51:44
permit that six months from then you're going to start charging? 00:51:50
So what, what? How does the six months work? 00:51:57
When you start building it, you start building before July. 00:52:01
Defined building, make sure it's on the next year. Dig out you're putting in the basement your your foundation, you that's 00:52:05
building. I mean, if they're already paying medication for the the strip land, I'm talking about when they start putting in 00:52:12
concrete or mechanism and that kind of stuff. OK, we need it further to find that we're running out of time, Dale. 00:52:19
You know, I've got almost all stormwater means all the problems are always caused by new development. Almost every one of them 00:52:27
you've you've heard it. I've heard it What I've asked what's happened change downstream what's happened? It's all new 00:52:34
construction. And it was my my belief that stormwater was always asking for more money and this is a place we can get more money 00:52:41
instead of charging decisions of this county like we tried to raise it last time What what was explained today Do you does it? 00:52:49
Does it, do you understand as far as the the fees that the developers pain for the inspection for the annual fee for the bonds and 00:52:56
all that is those fees going to that 800 some $1000 budget, whatever the storm water budget, that fee that they pay is stormwater 00:53:04
fee goes into that business. And to be honest with you Dale, we're looking at increasing those because they haven't been increased 00:53:11
in quite a while. So we are looking at increasing those fees that we charge at the very beginning. 00:53:19
For plan review and then going out and doing erosion control and everything else, because right now we're not. 00:53:27
We're not, we're the county, we're not here to make money. We're here to just pay for our cost that is associated with 00:53:33
administering this MS-4 permit. All right. And so right now we're losing money because we haven't increased those fees in, in a 00:53:41
while. So the one actually we're going to take away here is about maybe trying to find a way to to get those fees on, on the tax 00:53:48
rolls quicker for for the preceding year and I think look at increasing the fees that we charge for. 00:53:56
Submitting permit. 00:54:04
And everything else and getting them to today's standards versus what they are from 2009. 00:54:05
If that's enough to keep from asking the public to raise your stormwater, it's 2009. 00:54:14
2009 is when those fees were established. So we have an increase those fees since 2009. 00:54:21
It's time to get those increased. Also, Jason, you're the one that said why don't we have more money with more houses? 00:54:26
And this is one reason that. 00:54:32
No more does not control the problem, just like our more taxes. 00:54:34
I just want to try to figure out a little bit more about that six month, how that works, but that's just the logistics. 00:54:40
My only question is, do we need to? 00:54:51
Have another workshop to hammer after six months or we'd rather I think we need internally we need to check that process, see 00:54:57
what's involved in all. If you could send me maybe an e-mail or something like. 00:55:04
That. 00:55:10
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OK, I'll tell you just for the record, let's go ahead and. 00:00:02
I'm John Shellenberger. We're here to talk, have workshop on the developer stormwater fees. For the record, let's everybody go 00:00:06
around and identify themselves. Jason Copperway with Paul Primavera and associates. Brad Benson with Asbury County commissioner, 00:00:12
director of operations and planning, citizen. 00:00:18
Nick Creevy, director, building and development Chris Moore, Floyd County stormwater director Dale Man, Georgetown resident. 00:00:25
OK. Thanks everybody. I'm going to kind of leave it open for discussion here, but. 00:00:32
We've had some discussion at our stormwater meetings about the. 00:00:38
About storm water fees and in front of you we have two different topic or two, two different emails, one from PJ. 00:00:43
And then one from Dale Dale Mann and so. 00:00:52
I'll let them open this discussion, but I think we have a hard stop at three. Yes, one. I have one too. 00:00:58
Domestic. So anyway we got our stopper through welcome and done before that well. 00:01:06
Do you mind if I start? No, that's fine. 00:01:12
My suggestions at the meetings and by the e-mail. 00:01:14
In front of us was about. 00:01:19
When I'm not when but how to apply? 00:01:21
The stormwater feeds to the builders, the developers, et cetera, that were the. 00:01:25
Topic of discussion. 00:01:30
And I put down a few suggestions here. 00:01:32
About when it would be initiated, but I have some questions and perhaps Don can answer either. 00:01:35
What are the filing procedures? 00:01:44
From a builder or developer as far as when they're going to change the property and things like there is plots or lots, 00:01:48
subdivisions. 00:01:53
I've seen in various. 00:01:57
Literature that there's a grading plan and building permits. What is the person that they have to file when they're going to build 00:02:00
say a house or a subdivision? Well, I guess the first question I would ask back is, is this solely for subdivisions or is this for 00:02:08
any development in Floyd County? So if it's is this for is, is your request for making these changes solely for subdivisions? So 00:02:16
it's so if I have a vacant piece of land and want to build. 00:02:24
Your Is it just for structures or is it just for accessory buildings? 00:02:33
OK, any, any building that's going to have a storm under for instance in agricultural they do the impervious surface driveways, 00:02:39
buildings, outbuildings and residential it's the $39.00 fee and our commercial I understand is also a square footage but. 00:02:48
Whatever the zoning, commercial, residential. 00:02:58
When did they start? 00:03:04
Altering the surface of the land. 00:03:06
Like ratings, it depends on what It depends on the activity. 00:03:09
It depends on the activity. If it's a subdivision, it's at a certain point in time and Chris can probably tell you when that is. 00:03:14
If it's just a single family house on a vacant lot and in a non subdivision that would come at building permit. 00:03:21
But then you also have accessory structure. So what's the? 00:03:29
Are we? What are we looking to try to capture here? 00:03:34
But the main thing that got my attention and some others is. 00:03:38
When they're building subdivisions. 00:03:42
Like the single family lot? 00:03:45
Isn't as much of a problem because they're stripping, you know, and they're grading and doing from one house. 00:03:47
In building process, but when you're doing a subdivision, they might be stripping anywhere from 2:00 to 10:00 properties at a time 00:03:53
and they're building 1. 00:03:58
Structure of time. 00:04:03
But all the runoff is already increased, so it might for my. 00:04:05
Chris, maybe you can help. Can you walk through the process that might be that might be helpful. 00:04:13
I mean, the way I understand the process is if you're interested in developing your property for a subdivision, whether that's a 00:04:18
minor or exempt or major subdivision, you'd have to go in front of Planning Commission and get an approval. Once you got the 00:04:26
Planning Commission approval, then there's a whole checklist of different things that you would have to do as a developer to get 00:04:34
that going. One of those is submitting to Floyd County storm water your erosion control and drainage plans. 00:04:42
Once those are permitted and accepted at Floyd County storm water, then we then you would put up a bond for for that development 00:04:50
and then you would be able to start developing that land, which means you would could start clearing and taking off the. 00:05:00
Grass and vegetation and stuff. I think Nick Nurse, that's after they come back for secondary approval. 00:05:11
Correct for subdivisions. 00:05:18
No construction activities can occur until we have a development plan or a development agreement in place which occurs after 00:05:22
secondary. 00:05:26
So how what could be before a plat is? 00:05:32
But can they build before the plants recorded? 00:05:38
They can start, they can do their infrastructure, they can start putting their infrastructure. 00:05:41
But there's no lines at the time. No, no. But there's no watch. There's no subdivided watch until final plan, right? I understand 00:05:50
that. 00:05:56
You might be talking about Dale's discussion about acreage versus individual lots. How long? How long is it normally between the 00:06:02
2nd and final approval and actual work on the property? 00:06:08
Is it weeks, days, months? It can be up to 10 years. 00:06:16
Yeah, very. It varies by the development. We do have some schedules of when I. 00:06:20
You have you have to go from secondary approval to having your plat recorded. 00:06:29
One supply is reported. I mean they can take as long. 00:06:36
They'd like to complete their development and just to let you know, OK, so in our subdivision control ordinance, it says what, two 00:06:39
years between plat approvals and whatnot and then one year for secondary and I think the statute changed. 00:06:47
After that, was placed in. 00:06:56
And so now in the state statute, it says when you get a permit you have, you can hold that permit, which includes subdivision 00:06:59
approvals, for a period of 10 years. 00:07:05
And that permits good, I can understand that up turns downturns in the market so. 00:07:12
When? 00:07:18
Does the county? 00:07:20
Or how if the county get noticed that a builder is actually altering the property? 00:07:21
Is there any notice given when they actually bring in a bulldozer and start raiding? 00:07:30
This acreage to build one or a dozen homes there's a there's typically there's a pre construction conference with Floyd County 00:07:36
stormwater to make sure that their pre construction erosion control measures are in place and then only at that point could they 00:07:42
begin actual construction, actual grading. OK. So basically when they had that conference. 00:07:49
They're anticipating commencing the work, right. Typically they're not going to do that two years, three years before the the 00:07:56
building, right, not typically. OK. So that sounds like a good trigger point If the pre construction conference with stormwater 00:08:02
that sounds like a good time to put them on the fee schedule. 00:08:08
Because all the other hoops have been jumped through, the hurdles jumped over and they're getting ready to dig right. 00:08:15
Not everyone does a pre construction conference. 00:08:21
Not everyone does not. 00:08:25
Developers, they sometimes go ahead and start constructing without having that conference. There's nothing in there that requires 00:08:27
them to have a pre construction conference. They we just kind of do one. 00:08:33
You know, we all try to work together and try to make sure we're. 00:08:39
Moving it forward and everything else, but there's nothing that says that there is a required reconstruction. Have you had any 00:08:44
subdivisions put in recently that they have not had? 00:08:49
And so. 00:08:54
Those might be problematic, but would there be any problem? 00:08:57
Where subdivisions that do have a pre construction conference, would there be any problem to start the storm? Would it be clock 00:09:00
money? Then you don't have a lot. You don't have a legal Why? 00:09:06
That's when you get into what Dale was saying. 00:09:12
I'm a fan that they're going to clear. 00:09:15
If you go by the acreage, you can start using the same formula as you use right now for agriculture. 00:09:17
With the impervious surface area of the driveways, the infrastructure, OK. 00:09:24
So you. 00:09:30
But if it's. 00:09:33
And tell me if I'm wrong here, Jason, once you go in and put in your infrastructure, yes, and you, you have X number of days and 00:09:35
if you're not Earth moving, then that has to be covered. 00:09:40
AT-77 business, that's what I said 7. 00:09:47
Business. So seven business days or 14 business days. If there's not any earth moving, then they have to see it and straw and put 00:09:57
it back into vegetation. 00:10:02
So it reduces the runoff. 00:10:07
Yes, God's preserving. Sure. 00:10:10
So he just brought the point. So right now. 00:10:12
Are any of the builders? Developers charge for the infrastructure for the roadways, even if they haven't built houses yet. No, 00:10:15
they're paying for it. What do you mean they're paying for the infrastructure? The developer is constructing the improvements, the 00:10:20
storm water improvements. 00:10:24
No, but those are public infrastructure once they're turned over. Yeah, but you're talking that's apples and oranges. I'm talking 00:10:31
about infrastructure is built prior if it's installed in place. 00:10:38
What otherwise would be an increase in flow, and the current manual is actually a reduction in flow. 00:11:21
And we're still, we're still paying for storm water from the previous year on our taxes. I granted it's from the previous year. So 00:11:27
let's say this year 24, if it was raw ground last year, we'd be paying. 00:11:32
And 23 pay 24 taxes. We would have each installment would include a storm water fee. But it's we're changing it. That's when we're 00:11:38
still responsible for because we're nothing's leaving sight. How do you pay a stormwater pay on property that's not been built 00:11:45
yet? I'll give you an example. Glenwood Farms out there at that subdivision that was a training Center for horses and stuff and 00:11:52
they had barns and stables and hard surface. That was that storm water fee was still being charged. The owners, developers of 00:11:59
Glenwood Farms. 00:12:05
Until it started turning into houses and everything else. OK but how many out meadows in Westfield Springs? 00:12:13
Had no such pre-existing. 00:12:20
Strongman of these because that was vacant property now, but, but if there was a house on it, then it would have been, had a or it 00:12:22
would have been a resident, it would have a $39.00 charge. Or if it was a farm like a, a farmer had had it and he had some barns 00:12:27
on it and it would have been charged. That's impervious surface from those barns and houses, right? But in those two lots, none of 00:12:32
that. 00:12:38
Existed because it was vacant ground right so so roads are installed there a retention basins and a mitigation measures are put in 00:12:43
right yes, correct. And in case they haven't got met or they found that that wasn't sufficient, but in in an ideal situation, it's 00:12:51
supposed to catch all the runoff caused by the the new road and all that right only up to the 100 year storm event. So yeah, I I 00:12:58
think I mean back to your question on Henrik metals. 00:13:06
What was the what was the storm event that happened in? I'm assuming both May and what July? 00:13:14
What was that 100 year storm? Was that beyond 100 years? So then so when you make a statement that wasn't sufficient enough. 00:13:20
Are you sure it wasn't sufficient enough for the for 100 year storm or was it actually sufficient enough for 100 year storm and we 00:13:29
had beyond 100 years? I don't know. But that's what Al brought up and that that was here. He said they really need to change that 00:13:35
because there was 100 year, 500 year storm measurements are happening every two or three or five years now, not every hundred 00:13:41
years, but that's what I'm saying. I mean, I, I just, I mean. 00:13:47
It's, it's not, I'm just, I'm just making a factual statement. 00:13:55
When you made an opinion that said that developed the design was not adequate, you just said it. 00:14:00
Didn't work. You said it was inadequate. 00:14:10
So I mean, I think the question should be, why are we here? 00:14:14
I keep on going back to why are we here? 00:14:19
And if you could explain to me, you and Dale, because you're the ones that are, have kind of been the spearhead of this, why are 00:14:22
we here to change this? Read the ordinance. 00:14:26
What is it, Dale? What exactly? 00:14:35
Properties under such the stormwater fee for properties under construction will be billed to the owner on record of January 1st of 00:14:38
the building year. The builder or developer is responsible for stormfrother changes. OK, so is that what type of construction? 00:14:44
What is the I mean what's the definition of the start of construction? What's what's the definition of construction? Moving dirt 00:14:50
construction is defined. Construction activity is defined as starting with grading and clearing. Where does it say that in the 00:14:57
ordinance? 00:15:03
You're in the ordinance of the. There's two. Are you looking for the same one fees, the other is the ordinance itself. 00:15:11
So if we're referring to the one that defined property properties under construction, the term construction is never defined. What 00:15:18
do you where did you read that? Is that the establishment fees ordinance authorizing, authorizing, establishing a system, storm 00:15:25
water management, user user fees go to the main ordinance. That's the definitions are of construction activities. 00:15:31
The stormwater ordinance. 00:15:39
I had in the emails that I shared with the board and. 00:15:46
Chris, some months ago I had every section, even the page number written down on that. So under under the storm water ordinance 00:15:50
from 2019. 00:15:54
1.4 is the definition section which does not define construction. 00:15:59
If I can see that, yeah, no problem. 00:16:05
That. 00:16:09
And by the way the the reason? 00:16:23
That I was pushing for it is. 00:16:26
Properties under construction, whether it's just grading or actually building the houses. Again, subdivisions. 00:16:29
Got my attention because that's what I see the most springing up around me. 00:16:36
I noticed from driving there that it does increase funnel and even if there's retention vixens. 00:16:40
The it's. 00:16:47
It is increasing the runoff and from the retention basins it can overflow into just the same as coming off the deals ponds on this 00:16:51
farm. Sometimes some of this stuff comes over and I'm not sure why. 00:16:58
The the ordinance says. 00:17:05
The ordinance recognizes that altering the surface from the grass and all that. Well, let's let's find construction, I think. I 00:17:08
think let's let's go from there because the, the issue, my understanding is that the concern here is the ordinance is not being 00:17:16
interpreted correctly and it needs to be interpreted as term as when construction starts, correct, Mr. Mann, pretty much. So. OK, 00:17:23
so let's start with what the definition of construction is in the, in the definition section of the ordinance. 00:17:30
While I'm doing that, why don't you let down the purpose of time Jerk discuss his issue? 00:17:38
Give me one second. I'm going to cut you off here. Just for the record, this ordinance which authorizes the user fees does not 00:17:45
include any provision that references the ordinance. The references the definition section in it. So the definitions that are in 00:17:50
this speak to. 00:17:55
Now have I read. 00:18:39
Word for word looking for that no, but I'm looking at it now. I do not see it. It would be in the last section or in the 00:18:40
definition in the definition section. 00:18:45
It does not include that. 00:18:51
OK. So I guess in terms of moving forward with what you all want to do, you want to have that may be something we need to look at 00:18:53
in terms of how how these are being referenced in terms of construction? 00:18:58
I banned the construction activity. There's another definition section further back in the ordinance. I'm sorry, what's your first 00:19:03
name? Brett. 00:19:07
I'm on page. 00:19:13
Whatever section 2.4 definitions. 00:19:15
I did have to them with this shortage clean we're at. Construction activity is defined as land disturbance activities subject to 00:19:19
the state and PDS general construction permits or local permits. Such activities include, but are not limited to, clearing and 00:19:26
grubbing, rating, excavation and demolition. 00:19:34
And then it goes on to describe, define Floyd County. 00:19:43
Yeah. So that's the definitions in this ordinance that you handed me. 00:19:46
Again, section 2.4. 00:19:56
And can I see the other? 00:19:59
The point you just read about. 00:20:03
Your position if he's. 00:20:05
Yeah, that one is. 00:20:07
This is all one. 00:20:10
Yep. 00:20:15
Chris, whenever the developer. 00:20:18
Plan is there, there, there there's a fee that they pay, Is that correct? Absolutely. And what's that fee called and what's it 00:20:21
cost and what's what's the purpose of it? 00:20:26
The the intent of the fee is for. 00:20:31
The fee is for us for the permit and any subsequential inspections from approval of the permit and everything else. So it's for 00:20:36
the drainage and EPS erosion control permit. So they have to give that fee to us first, so then we review. 00:20:47
What they submitted and then we would give them a permit and then that would also include us going out and doing the inspections 00:20:59
and everything else. So that fee should cover all the way up to them starting to construct houses, OK. 00:21:05
And how much is that? Do you remember it's, it's varies based on the type of development. If it's a subdivision that it's based on 00:21:13
lots which you don't know that until it comes through on final plat. 00:21:19
Based on the number of lots, the more feet and then if it's not a subdivision, if it's a commercial or industrial or something, 00:21:27
it's based on the acreage, right? 00:21:32
And it's also tiered as well. 00:21:37
So there is fees being paid. 00:21:40
By the developers. 00:21:43
For for those activities, stormwater fate. Yes, it is a storm water fee. 00:21:47
More than $39.00 he pays. He pays for, you know, up to four lots. He pays $600. 00:21:54
But that's not what wonderful from 1:00 to 4:00 lots he would pay $600.00. So I mean, that's more, it supports the storm water 00:22:03
effort. 00:22:07
But it's not a stormwater feat as defined. It's not per E, are you? There could be more than one fee, right? That's why we want 00:22:13
the stormwater fee added on to it. 00:22:17
Well, no, there can be more than one. This department of storm water collects more than one fee. 00:22:23
Right, OK. I mean you're, so they collect a fee when a development takes place that's that's a that's a set of fees and a schedule 00:22:29
that that Chris and Jason just explained. And then there's the annual fee. 00:22:36
For development. 00:22:48
You read what I put out. 00:22:50
And I'd like, I'd like to explain, explain it to me. When they come and strip all, all the soil off that which they do, and 00:22:53
they're doing it right now at Knob Hill. There's a mountain down there. They're moved. They're all down to the dirt when they do 00:22:58
that. There's nothing to stop the runoff. 00:23:03
There runs off. They're installing those measures as you as we speak. That is correct. What about the roads they build? They never 00:23:09
pay a dime on the road. Those roads are not ours till they're turned over to the county. They pay nothing. A farmer we got to pay 00:23:15
for a piece of concrete out there. They pay nothing on a road that they have paid. Show me where they paid their fees. Somewhere 00:23:22
they paid $2600 for that whole. How many yards was that? 00:23:28
What's 26, 2006 $100 tell me they don't pay no storm water fee like they have? No they don't. 00:23:35
I think what what PJ was asking you at one point in time was explain what you'd like to see happen. 00:23:46
And, and can you explain, I mean what could you explain to the group because some of them just got it today I would like to see 00:23:53
happen is what I put out when they strip all that dirt. 00:23:58
They come and measure them if it's a 10 acre lot, which I give example if it's a 10 acre lot. 00:24:03
And that 10 acres is stripped of red clay is which that what they do? 00:24:09
And then they start building, they start doing a lot and is as they built their house, they could take that, they could take that 00:24:14
10 acres and get it back. 00:24:17
From the home builders, said us waiting another year for the home builder to pay his homework fee. I'm not the one hollering for 00:24:21
more storm water fees and trying to charge everybody else more when the developer is not paying his fair share. 00:24:26
Explain, explain, explain your explain your proposal. 00:24:33
Proposal is to do just what I wrote down. Well, that's not explaining it. Explain it. Please Bill, please explain it. Explain it. 00:24:36
Acre land is 43,000. 00:24:42
That acre land is in almost impervious. 00:24:47
I give them a little bit like 2/10. We're not being in purpose. Can I? Can I? You want me to hold my questions at the end? No, go 00:24:55
get it. OK, so where did you get the 1314 set? 00:24:59
That was a when you divide, when you drive the absorption rate. Look at the absorption rate on my bottom notes. Where I got that 00:25:05
at? Where did you get that at? I got it offline just like everybody else. I don't know, it's hard to find. 00:25:11
It's a national. It's not. I mean, Jason didn't put any of this down. This is just exactly. 00:25:18
Department of Health to tell you absorption rate of all salt types. I'm asking you because you're the one. That's where I got it 00:25:25
at. You got it from what sorts Got it off from the state. I didn't write the source down. I didn't think I had to, but I'll get it 00:25:31
to you when I get home. 00:25:36
I it's a fair assimilation. Any several engineers should be able to tell you that. I think it'd be very important to understand 00:25:42
that because at some point in time you're asking this board to change the ordinance so that it would follow this, this plan. And 00:25:49
how is it? And there's going to have to be a need for this to be defensible. 00:25:56
I can get you the numbers, but your health, your health department. 00:26:04
This is not about mine or yours or whatever. You're coming to a board, you're making a you're asking them to make a change in an 00:26:09
ordinance county wide. And why don't you bring, why not bring the the supporting documentation to support it instead of just using 00:26:17
generalities and the generalities of it's your health department? No, I'd like to know, is it from the soils survey from 1975? Is 00:26:25
it from the Floyd County health department, from the Indiana State Health Department? 00:26:32
From Purdue University, I guess I could bring dirt. I could bring luminous dirt, red clay and pour water on it and show you. 00:26:41
I wasn't prepared to do that. I just give you an example. 00:26:51
OK, if you want, if you want the numbers and you want me to do a proper professional, I can do that too. But I didn't think I 00:26:56
would have to do that to get my point across. Well, the point across, the developer pays no storm water fees. The point across is 00:27:02
you're asking them to do something, but you don't have any documentation. You should come here with a professional. 00:27:08
Just a citizen. I'm just a citizen. You're a citizen that has asked this board to come in and just public workshop, correct? We've 00:27:14
asked for how many years when in ordinances that start with construction. We can't even agree on that still. 00:27:20
E-mail him. 00:27:27
The story she has that brought that stuff. 00:27:29
I can't get it. You can look it up yourself. You can pull it up from and do yourself. I can e-mail you. I can e-mail you those 00:27:32
numbers. I just cut a little bit out to just to show because I couldn't find the exhaustion rate. 00:27:38
So you can't find it. So you've now just admitted you can't find an absorption. I did. That's what I meant. That's what I said. I 00:27:44
couldn't find all of it. 00:27:46
I found that. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Why do you want to argue with me? I'm just a citizen, Don. I don't want to argue that 00:27:50
because I'm that woman. I'm asking you if you're going to come in front of a board. 00:27:54
And you do come in front of boards and you're making a request to change an ordinance. You're making it. 00:28:00
Start a construction. No, no, no. Where is your thirteen 14th in the ordinance? 00:28:12
I was asked to put in proposing. That's what I did. If I had to be professional, that's different. You would have contacted me 00:28:23
back, asked me, Dale, where is you getting this 1314? I would have brought the whole article. 00:28:28
Figured you would. You would have it here. That's what? A public workshop. I don't get paid. Don Lop. You're paid pressure, not 00:28:34
me. Hold on. Hold on, Hold on. OK. 00:28:39
Look, let's make the assumption. 00:28:44
That it's that, that it's not 1314. Let's let's go through this whole exercise and see where you're coming to, OK? Because that's 00:28:48
the broader picture, OK? 00:28:52
And we can talk about the references and the absorption rate and all that, but let's go down through this and let's find out 00:28:57
exactly what you're proposing, Dale, OK. 00:29:01
So continue. 00:29:06
OK. Then if we go with that's the that's what I found in the absorption rate, that's how I got proposal. When they pull up all the 00:29:08
topsoil off of grass and they go down the red clay which absorption rates very little. Most of times they were just like concrete. 00:29:15
But you charge them nothing. But you'll charge me for a pad on the ground of concrete. You'll come and measure it. 00:29:23
And that's pretty much the same thing I want with a lot that they they're developing when they pull all their tops off of it. And 00:29:30
then when they build a house on starker grass, you can start, they can start taking that off and getting it back. 00:29:37
But we measure them just like you measure farm. But we don't charge you for that concrete pad until there's a concrete pad that's 00:29:44
shown on our aerial photography. All right, So you don't, you could go one year or two years without being charged for that 00:29:50
concrete pad. 00:29:56
Because then it shows up on the assessment and then everything else. And that's when we would capture. You're wanting us to now do 00:30:02
the developers before we would capture you. So, so so the development community would get charged before you would. 00:30:11
And and so that wouldn't be fair to them if we're not charged, if we're charging them ahead of you, but you're so it's not coming, 00:30:20
it's coming from the new development. That's where it's coming from. And you all know that I'd argue it's not coming from the 00:30:26
development because. 00:30:33
The drainage reports say, and how much we have to capture are we capture significantly more than what an existing property would, 00:30:39
Because the way that Duran Jordan is written is it's A to almost make up for. 00:30:46
The years when there wasn't one, when that's that's what caused the issue, when years and years ago when there wasn't anything in 00:30:53
place, when it was a little bit more. 00:30:57
Freestyle you just you didn't have to capture as much where we had to capture a lot on every single property. It's a considerable 00:31:01
reduction. It's it's it's you take a two year storm and reduce it to a two year A10 year storm or reduce it to a two year pre 00:31:07
development storm. You take 100 year post development storm and reduce it to a 10 year pre development storm. It is a now a 00:31:12
significant reduction. 00:31:17
But they're saying neighbors said it increased. 00:31:56
With the after the construction to be to be honest, but. 00:31:58
I want to get back to work. Well, I want to go back to Henry Rock Mills because this seems to be the issue and one of the issues 00:32:02
and one of the issues. If you look in the minutes of the Planning Commission and the staff report, the staff report asked for 00:32:09
125%. The Planning Commission just decided not to do, not to follow staff report of 125% retention. 00:32:15
Where did they go? They went with the standard stormwater, which is 100 year, which is 100% OK. 00:32:22
So. 00:32:27
So they are not on the side of caution, They do not. They decided not to take that as a condition for the property. 00:32:29
So I mean, if you look through this process. 00:32:36
That we had a pre meeting, we had an open meeting. 00:32:40
We had the gentleman sit there and say that he already had flooding. 00:32:45
Which is kind of. 00:32:48
You know when you have a, when you have a? 00:32:50
Vacant land. 00:32:53
There and then the staff put 125% and now it went to 100%. But even at 100% we're still talking about a rain event. 00:32:55
That is beyond 100 year, the 100 year measure it's going to, they're going to have flooding at a certain point in time regardless 00:33:06
of how large you build the detention, right, especially because their standards are outmoded and need to be updated. There's no 00:33:12
doubt about that. But. 00:33:18
I could say grad. 00:33:25
What you just said about the construction and detention basins and capturing the water, you actually share some of the problems 00:33:26
with the agriculture people. He's got three or four ponds. He does his darnest to collect. 00:33:33
Run off, not let it go under the street where it's cattle, the crops, whatever. I know other land holders with that too and so 00:33:40
they don't understand why they're charged for impervious for young. He could have 50 acres. 00:33:47
And pay more for one house in the garage than a regular residential lot would have, even though that 50 acres is collecting 00:33:55
surrounding properties run on, so I can sympathize with that. 00:34:01
When you said the the discussion, I'm glad I'm hearing this. 00:34:08
If you're telling me that the builders and developers are paying. 00:34:13
Storm water mitigation. 00:34:18
While it's being built. 00:34:20
And paying at a higher rate than $39 per. 00:34:22
Projected or probable? 00:34:26
I mean, I'm OK with that. 00:34:29
Being fair, I just didn't, you know? 00:34:32
I did not know that. My impression was that they weren't paying anything other than putting in some mitigation measure and then 00:34:35
that's it if they're actually paying. 00:34:39
Fees above and beyond to have Chris or just themselves and Chris monitor runoff. I mean, that's all I'm asking for is fairness and 00:34:44
reasonableness and the $39 per lot. 00:34:52
The only thing where I would still hold out for that is I don't think that should wait until it's transferred, bought and sold to 00:35:00
some family. I think as soon as they have the house going up. 00:35:06
House, garage, driving, whatever I think that property needs to be on the regular residential storm would affect. 00:35:13
Don't we receive the storm water fee once once the house is assessed at a certain percentage that the yes. So I don't like the 00:35:22
assessment. Generally it's all about when the house complete in that January 1 date of the assessment if it's. 00:35:28
Say caught, but you know, it's just like, start building a house on Yeah. And November versus June, the house in June will be 00:35:35
finished and we'll get a full bill for the following year. 00:35:41
It's just like, it's just like anyone else. It would be like if Dale decided to put another barn on this property or if I decided 00:35:47
to put another shed on my property. Just like you and the development community, if you decide to actually put a house on there. 00:35:53
The the records that we get that were able to do the billing, instead of having our own billing department, we use assessors and 00:35:59
tax bills. 00:36:05
Those are all in the rears, so it does take them some time before they are actually caught up onto the assessment roles and 00:36:11
everything else so. 00:36:15
No one is getting anything ahead of time or or getting an advantage on anyone else. It just depends on when it's in the assessors 00:36:21
role and they're all in the rears. So like I said, if they'll build a pole barn this year or today, that's not going to show up 00:36:29
until January 1 of 2025. Just like if ASB doesn't build a house last month, it's not going to show up till January 1 of 2025. Just 00:36:36
like if I put another **** on my property, it's not going to show up until January 1 of 2025. 00:36:44
That's when we would get that information from the assessor's office and then charge the stormwater fee. So everyone is then equal 00:36:52
on the same page. And that's what part of this whole discussion and workshop is about, trying to be fair, inequitable and all 00:36:59
across the board not not to have one entity not get charged. 00:37:06
By putting their concrete pad in but yet charging another one when they have nothing on their property. Just on the speculation 00:37:14
that they are going to have some lots eventually later that year or possibly in a year and a half. 00:37:20
You said in arrears. 00:37:27
Saying. 00:37:29
What's up five homes and subdivision this summer, but it's not on the roads until January, January 1 to 2025 and that's when we 00:37:33
would catch the fee for 2024 since it's in arrears or is that just forgiven and does not put on the taxes wise? It would be 2024. 00:37:41
Our storm water bill would have already been sent out. So there's no way of putting it on the storm water bill for 2024 because 00:37:48
our bills had already been sent out so. 00:37:56
The next billing cycle that it would be eligible for would be that January 1 of 2025, just like all the other parcels. So there's 00:38:04
no way. 00:38:08
The billing contract Dale or a developer? 00:38:13
For the arrears, you're saying that? 00:38:18
Right. Accounting rights. That's impossible. 00:38:20
The the storm water fee is basically like any other tag. It's basically a tax in the bottom line. It goes on your tax, it goes on 00:38:23
your property tax bill. When, when, when the event happens that triggers it. So the building, the construction of the house, then 00:38:31
it would go on the bill for next year, for this year, just like if you. 00:38:38
Built an outbuilding or built a swimming pool? As soon as it gets assessed then it would be added to your taxes. 00:38:47
And then you pay it the next year. That's what he means by in arrears. It doesn't actually fund until the next year. 00:38:54
Three of them don't sell. 00:39:02
Till a year and a half from now. 00:39:08
Does that mean that? 00:39:11
They got they the cell. The cell date does not matter and it's all about the assessment date and when it would be caught on that 00:39:14
January 1. When that assessment goes up, that's when it would be. 00:39:19
Is the owner at that point and and so whether it sells tomorrow or. 00:39:26
A year and a half from now it's on ASP until they do sell and then changes ownership. Then if if two of those houses changes the 00:39:34
ownership by January 1, it would be caught and then that new owner would get that bill versus ASB. Good. One of the reasons I 00:39:40
wanted to come here is just I had questions and then one of them was. 00:39:46
Does it take a transfer on ownership to get, you know, to kick in there and say I'm glad I'm here because I'm getting a lot of 00:39:52
information so I appreciate it including you guys. But my position is if there's nobody private or individual citizen or a builder 00:39:59
is getting a free ride on stormwater mitigation. 00:40:06
I don't have a big issue with that. 00:40:14
I don't know Jason or Brad if you want to speak. Sometimes these bonds are quite expensive on top of maintaining it throughout. I 00:40:57
mean it would be much easier, cheaper for us to pay $39.00 a lot. 00:41:02
Right. They're, yeah, they're maintaining that infrastructure until the two year test period is done at a minimum if and, and at 00:41:08
that point the county gets to come in and inspect it and they have to make repairs to those facilities to make sure they're 100% 00:41:13
functional and correctly installed at the moment the county takes it over. 00:41:19
So there's not a free ride anywhere? I got a question. 00:41:25
Before before the roads are turned over to the county. 00:41:31
Who pays the stalwart? 00:41:36
That that's part of their permit fee and the bond that they put up. 00:41:38
And they maintain those facilities. What about the storm water? 00:41:44
Looked on my run I feel like like I got to pay like we all got to pay. As soon as a house develops on a lot while the developer is 00:41:48
maintaining the roads, then those houses pay a storm water fee. They pay 39 on their lot. Who pays on the road Rat? Who pays on 00:41:54
the road? Are you? Are you referring solely the road? The road before they're turned over to the county? Who pays storm water fee 00:42:01
on the road? There's not a storm water yearly fee for that, but it is covered by the permit fees. 00:42:08
And the water is being caught by the detention ponds and old measure, just just like throwing off the property. They've already 00:42:16
got those measures in place. So you've got a road and the water is running into the into the. 00:42:23
Water with my ponds too, just like Henriette Rd. Henriott Rd. does not charge the storm water fee for Henry OTT Rd. Henriot Roger 00:42:31
County Road. 00:42:35
Are not in charge. All roads are in charge of that's considered. 00:42:41
That's gonna be the subdivision still turned over to the county and they don't pay any stormwater fees. 00:42:47
Private road caster pay roads are not considered. 00:42:54
So a black top Rd. has to pay no, but no one pays a stormwater fee for their. 00:42:58
Right. And no one, no one pays a storm water fee for Henriette Rd. 00:43:05
County Road, but that that road before that subdivision, so that road inside is not the county. I believe you can find in the 00:43:11
ordinance where it says roadways are not considered. 00:43:16
Public use, but it's not a public, it's privately owned Rd. 00:43:21
That's actually not technically true because as soon as the Plaid is recorded, the right of way is dedicated. The right of way is 00:43:25
dedicated to the candidates, so it's county property, but it doesn't have to be maintained by the county until such time as next. 00:43:30
Are you talking about? 00:43:36
It doesn't matter what Rd. does not charge the storm water fee. 00:43:41
No, I'm not talking about Windster. I'm talking about the new roads for the subdivision inside the subdivision. So when when it 00:43:47
comes to final plan? 00:43:50
And when the commissioners sign it and when Jason and Brad record it, then that right away is dedicated to the county. 00:43:54
Right. 00:44:02
Who pays the stormwater fee on that, on that? 00:44:05
Right. 00:44:09
They are for driveways and roads. They are and there's no storm water fee I think. 00:44:12
Dell, let me you're here, you can tell me if I'm wrong on this. Your contention is? 00:44:17
As agriculture gets gets charged for a driveway. 00:44:23
Or commercial insider development they get. 00:44:28
And you're saying that that should be charged? 00:44:35
The floor gets handed over to the camp. 00:44:39
So, but you're saying that you mentioned, you mentioned you know that you've got ponds on your property that are mitigating storm 00:44:44
water? 00:44:48
I believe there's a process under the ordinance where you can come and apply for a credit. 00:44:52
For those measures that are in place to get a reduction in your stormwater fee, I agree, Jason, but I have to cost $500.00 for an 00:44:56
engineer to write a letter saying I'm catching water. That's pretty cheap. Pretty cheap for a $5 credit that's real cheap. 00:45:03
100 years. 00:45:12
Yeah. And and I gotta renew it every five years. That's the credit. I just want to summarize here. And the question was that you 00:45:15
gotta you got a subdivision, it's been, it's, it's gone through the construction and they've got all the detention bases and all 00:45:22
that. Those are designed to catch the runoff. OK. And now it's what 125% is that right? No, it's. 00:45:30
It's reduced the 100 year to the 10 year pre development rate and the 10 year post development to the two year pre development 00:45:38
rate, OK. So it's a it's a significant reduction in runoff under the current manual, OK. 00:45:43
So let's say you have a subdivision and if the developer is not developing that, OK. 00:45:48
They were not paying a fee on those lots because that because there's no building on there, correct? 00:45:55
That's correct. Correct. OK. But what you were talking about is that that you want to charge him a stormwater fee for that if they 00:46:01
got their land stripped. That's what I've been going after. They're required to see the straw. 00:46:08
OK, there's no tops or red kite. It's not absorbed water. 00:46:17
I don't disagree with that. When they strip all the tops off red clay, you've got runoff. See what they've done. 00:46:21
To the detention areas, as it's supposed to. It still runs to that Creek. 00:46:31
But there's a Rosen, there's a Rosen control measures, there's erosion control measures. And they are while they're stripping the 00:46:36
land of the top soil and leaving it red clay, they are installing their detention basins. While while they're constructing, so 00:46:42
does a farmer. 00:46:47
He's got, you've got, I don't, You've got the land strip. You've got bear, bear. Red clay farmers got a barn. The impervious 00:46:54
service is much different, but you measure that farmer, but you let you at the subdivision all that red clay run off. But we're 00:47:00
not charging that farmer until the barn is actually built. 00:47:06
We're not charging the farmer before he increased his plans. Get put, get submitted to us. We're not charging the farmer before 00:47:13
his plans are submitted. I understand that. So you're not charging a farmer for stripped land either? You're charging them for 00:47:18
increased impervious area, Yes. 00:47:23
They're not. You're not paying anything for a strip of field strip lands the same as impervious. That's what I've tried to prove 00:47:28
with a 1314. You're not paying it with Chris. Name is. If you're going to apply to them, then every individual landowner that's 00:47:36
going to put up a bar or whatever has to do the same thing and start paying early. That's what he is saying. 00:47:43
Just because there's a larger scale doesn't mean they still have to pay more than smaller scale. 00:47:51
By the way, each retention basins. 00:47:58
How much the the potential pollutants do they catch? 00:48:01
Before it gets discharged into the assumption, different detention basins can detain different pollutants at different rates and 00:48:05
everything else. Some sometimes you have grass bottom detention ponds and so all the nutrients and all the sediment can get caught 00:48:12
in that vegetation before it gets released and everything else. And that's kind of the design of detention basins is hey, let it, 00:48:20
it's the old, it's the old thought process. Let, let the sediment kind of settle down and then. 00:48:28
Then the clean water can go out and then every so often you need to. 00:48:36
Dig up, dig up that sediment that reaches them now, the new regulations that they're wanting to pass that they haven't did yet, 00:48:41
and then this will make Jason happy is they find out that the sediment doesn't. 00:48:46
Settle down fast enough. So now they want to put these skimmers on top of these detention basins that would capture the first inch 00:48:52
or first, what they call first flush. And so the skimmers would actually start sucking the water out and put that sediment into 00:49:00
this area and then let the clean water come out and everything else, which will cost developers a whole lot more money. 00:49:07
We're going to wrap up your. 00:49:16
OK. 00:49:19
We're here because you're also concerned. So I am happy with the information I got. And has it addressed your concerns? Yeah, the 00:49:21
the only thing that isn't quote UN quote perfect is. 00:49:27
The number of weeks or months, whatever, that a property under construction might be on the fee schedule but is not. 00:49:34
I'm not prepared to nitpick that that there was something I would like to see if it's more than six months to get it put on the. 00:49:42
The fee for that year, even if it means some sort of accounting change for the arrears, but other than that I'm good. I'm I 00:49:50
appreciate these guys coming to give me the information. So your concern is that if at some point in time that rate needs to be 00:49:57
prorated for that for that year in order to get on the tax roll, is that correct? 00:50:03
What's your? What's your time frame then? 00:50:16
Six months. Are you good with six months? I mean, if at some point in time myself, Chris, someone's going to be at that podium 00:50:18
talking to the board about changes that have come out of this. And so, you know, I'd much rather understand what you're proposing. 00:50:27
If it's less than half, let it go. If it's more than half, OK, Would you look at it? Let's let's round it up to $40. That's $20, 00:50:39
OK. 00:50:43
And then there is administrative effort on this part too, Chris, OK, because you've got the assessor, you've got, it's the company 00:50:48
that we use. So it's like I remember the argument, Al was right. I think once you get past the baking in period, it should just be 00:50:55
automatic. You still have to get it done. Is that right, Chris? 00:51:02
Something was constructed within less than six months. You would have to somehow. 00:51:11
Flag those through the assessor's office and then get that to our third party engineering that does the storm water billing and 00:51:19
let them know. And then that would take them a little extra time to do that. So it's not quite automated. It still would take 00:51:24
people and time and effort to get it. 00:51:30
What would trigger the six months? How would we know when that six months is up? 00:51:38
How would you know? I'm asking just general January 1 did you so right, so is it so you're saying that when we pull a building 00:51:44
permit that six months from then you're going to start charging? 00:51:50
So what, what? How does the six months work? 00:51:57
When you start building it, you start building before July. 00:52:01
Defined building, make sure it's on the next year. Dig out you're putting in the basement your your foundation, you that's 00:52:05
building. I mean, if they're already paying medication for the the strip land, I'm talking about when they start putting in 00:52:12
concrete or mechanism and that kind of stuff. OK, we need it further to find that we're running out of time, Dale. 00:52:19
You know, I've got almost all stormwater means all the problems are always caused by new development. Almost every one of them 00:52:27
you've you've heard it. I've heard it What I've asked what's happened change downstream what's happened? It's all new 00:52:34
construction. And it was my my belief that stormwater was always asking for more money and this is a place we can get more money 00:52:41
instead of charging decisions of this county like we tried to raise it last time What what was explained today Do you does it? 00:52:49
Does it, do you understand as far as the the fees that the developers pain for the inspection for the annual fee for the bonds and 00:52:56
all that is those fees going to that 800 some $1000 budget, whatever the storm water budget, that fee that they pay is stormwater 00:53:04
fee goes into that business. And to be honest with you Dale, we're looking at increasing those because they haven't been increased 00:53:11
in quite a while. So we are looking at increasing those fees that we charge at the very beginning. 00:53:19
For plan review and then going out and doing erosion control and everything else, because right now we're not. 00:53:27
We're not, we're the county, we're not here to make money. We're here to just pay for our cost that is associated with 00:53:33
administering this MS-4 permit. All right. And so right now we're losing money because we haven't increased those fees in, in a 00:53:41
while. So the one actually we're going to take away here is about maybe trying to find a way to to get those fees on, on the tax 00:53:48
rolls quicker for for the preceding year and I think look at increasing the fees that we charge for. 00:53:56
Submitting permit. 00:54:04
And everything else and getting them to today's standards versus what they are from 2009. 00:54:05
If that's enough to keep from asking the public to raise your stormwater, it's 2009. 00:54:14
2009 is when those fees were established. So we have an increase those fees since 2009. 00:54:21
It's time to get those increased. Also, Jason, you're the one that said why don't we have more money with more houses? 00:54:26
And this is one reason that. 00:54:32
No more does not control the problem, just like our more taxes. 00:54:34
I just want to try to figure out a little bit more about that six month, how that works, but that's just the logistics. 00:54:40
My only question is, do we need to? 00:54:51
Have another workshop to hammer after six months or we'd rather I think we need internally we need to check that process, see 00:54:57
what's involved in all. If you could send me maybe an e-mail or something like. 00:55:04
That. 00:55:10
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